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are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:16 am
by Capoeira
our 40+ members might remember those loudness buttons on recievers and amps of the 70ies and early 80ies. They ideia behind it (though poorly realized back then) actualy makes a lot of sense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
We all know that to hear the soud balanced you have to crank up the system. But most of the time we actualy don't hear music at 83dB (mastering reference) right?
Nowadays we have data to realize at least a sigificantly accurate compensation at all levels in the ISO 226:2003.
I have been using/testing these two IRs for for a week or so through a convolver: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic= ... #msg722690
If you try it out use the alternative version. I found myself not having the need to crank up the volume anymore. listening at -20 most of the time, and when I want to feel the music I go -10
There is also this https://github.com/dpapavas/alsaloudness for Alsa. I didn't try it out since I use Ffado with Jack.
I would like to push a more advanced jack compatible gui based stand-alone version of this, and asking here for people interested in something like this. let me know

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:30 pm
by PatS
Though I had heard about the human ear's "Fletcher-Munson" sensitivity thing some years ago, I had forgotten all about it.
...at last I realize what exactly that "loudness" button on my amp in the 80s was for :D
I'd be quite interested in software tools which address the subject.
Thanks!

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:58 am
by Capoeira
PatS wrote:Though I had heard about the human ear's "Fletcher-Munson" sensitivity thing some years ago, I had forgotten all about it.
...at last I realize what exactly that "loudness" button on my amp in the 80s was for :D
I'd be quite interested in software tools which address the subject.
Thanks!


Hi, I somehow missed your reply. This "project" is postponed in my agenda, but I come back to this.
ATM I use those two IRs (alternative version) I mentioned. It's very nice how you get used to adjust the percieved loudness to the curve chosen. The ultimate solution would be a curve that adjust automaticly to the loudness (not the volume)

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:59 pm
by Capoeira
any dev willing to dev a plugin version of the alsa software?
we can talk about sponsoring

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:57 am
by sadko4u
Do I right understand that you need an Equalizer which will have different equalization (according to the loudness curve) depending on the gain settings?

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:14 am
by Capoeira
sadko4u wrote:Do I right understand that you need an Equalizer which will have different equalization (according to the loudness curve) depending on the gain settings?


yea, the EQ/convolver needs a diferent curve every 5dB or so. It needs a proper volume control which will change the curves when changed.
an EQ/convolver software with a switch to change between (6 or so) curves would actualy do the job

the dev explains the theory here: https://github.com/dpapavas/alsaloudness

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:32 pm
by sadko4u
Capoeira wrote:yea, the EQ/convolver needs a diferent curve every 5dB or so. It needs a proper volume control which will change the curves when changed.
an EQ/convolver software with a switch to change between (6 or so) curves would actualy do the job

the dev explains the theory here: https://github.com/dpapavas/alsaloudness


The curve can be approximated.
Anyway, the idea of such plugin is good. I think I'll take on it but a bit later.

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:00 pm
by bluebell
sadko4u wrote:Do I right understand that you need an Equalizer which will have different equalization (according to the loudness curve) depending on the gain settings?


Some old German HiFi equipment had a valume knob that used "Gehörrichtige Lautstärkeregelung".

https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... Info%2EPNG
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... rven%2Epng

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:18 pm
by Capoeira
sadko4u wrote:
Capoeira wrote:yea, the EQ/convolver needs a diferent curve every 5dB or so. It needs a proper volume control which will change the curves when changed.
an EQ/convolver software with a switch to change between (6 or so) curves would actualy do the job

the dev explains the theory here: https://github.com/dpapavas/alsaloudness


The curve can be approximated.
Anyway, the idea of such plugin is good. I think I'll take on it but a bit later.


cool,
one nice add-on would be a LUFS meter, though someone could easily use ebumeter

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:23 pm
by Capoeira
bluebell wrote:
sadko4u wrote:Do I right understand that you need an Equalizer which will have different equalization (according to the loudness curve) depending on the gain settings?


Some old German HiFi equipment had a valume knob that used "Gehörrichtige Lautstärkeregelung".

https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... Info%2EPNG
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... rven%2Epng


very nice,
I don't understand why this concept is abandoned. back in the days all amps had a loudness button, though not as advanced as this Grundig solution.
Meassuring the loudness is a problem, but a good listener should be able to adjust the correction by ear.
low volume music sounds so much better I just don't get it why nobody wants this anymore. People pay $20.000 for gear to hear sound like on a laptop speaker at low volumes

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:02 pm
by bluebell
Capoeira wrote:
bluebell wrote:
sadko4u wrote:Do I right understand that you need an Equalizer which will have different equalization (according to the loudness curve) depending on the gain settings?


Some old German HiFi equipment had a valume knob that used "Gehörrichtige Lautstärkeregelung".

https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... Info%2EPNG
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... rven%2Epng


very nice,
I don't understand why this concept is abandoned. back in the days all amps had a loudness button, though not as advanced as this Grundig solution.
Meassuring the loudness is a problem, but a good listener should be able to adjust the correction by ear.
low volume music sounds so much better I just don't get it why nobody wants this anymore. People pay $20.000 for gear to hear sound like on a laptop speaker at low volumes


My Yamaha HiFi amps have a loudness knob – from "Flat" to a strong loudness effect. Not bad. But not calibrated as the Grundig and other amps were in those times.

Re: are you always listening at 83dB SPL? aka/ ISO 226:2003 based loudness compensation

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:07 pm
by Capoeira
bluebell wrote:
Capoeira wrote:
bluebell wrote:
Some old German HiFi equipment had a valume knob that used "Gehörrichtige Lautstärkeregelung".

https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... Info%2EPNG
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/u ... rven%2Epng


very nice,
I don't understand why this concept is abandoned. back in the days all amps had a loudness button, though not as advanced as this Grundig solution.
Meassuring the loudness is a problem, but a good listener should be able to adjust the correction by ear.
low volume music sounds so much better I just don't get it why nobody wants this anymore. People pay $20.000 for gear to hear sound like on a laptop speaker at low volumes


My Yamaha HiFi amps have a loudness knob – from "Flat" to a strong loudness effect. Not bad. But not calibrated as the Grundig and other amps were in those times.


nice. I whish there were standalone DSP boxes with this implanted